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Necoa #: 9990
Location: 2(CT,MA,ME,NH,RI,VT)
Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 20
Year: 1984
Model: El Camino
Posted: Mon May 12, 2008 4:28 pm Post subject: Convert to R12 or not
I am getting my 84 Elcamino and my 87 Monte Carlo SS ready to get the AC working. I have one shop telling me that I will have to retrofit the systems to R 134A at a cost of $136.00. They will recharge the system and install a dye. Then I need to bring it back 2 weeks later to see if there are any leaks. If they find any leaks and I have them repaired the recharge is free.
The other shop is telling me that they can recharge it with R 12 ($65.00per pound) and are recomending not converting it. For $48.00 they will test the system and tell me what it will cost to repair the system before they recharge it. If the system checks out to be all right it would be about $200.00 to recharge it with the R 12 and if I have it repaired the $48.00 charge would be credited to the bill.
Which way would be the better route to take have it converted or stay with the R 12? Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.
The day is fast aproaching when R12 will be impossible to get, or so cost prohibitive, you won't want it.
R134 is here to stay, at least for the forseable future - I would convert it. I did, and even tho it does not get as cold, as quickly, it does work and now there are no headaches.
If you do any traveling, and have trouble with the R12, you might not be able to find a place that has it. Where I live, about half the AC repair shops, won't even work on a R12 system, as they do not carry it. JMO
Had My '85 converted to R134a about 5 years ago, did not change any components. It has carried the same pressure since then. Also just changed to R134a on my '87, both systems work great. The El Camino cab is small, you don't need the same cooling capacity as a four-door sedan.
My advice is to convert to R134a and if you do need to top it up in the future, it's a do-it-yourself job with parts-store supplies.
Doug _________________ 85 El Camino 305, TH350, K&N, dual exhausts
87 El Camino 305, 2004R, K&N, dual exhausts
1964-1/2 Mustang conv, 260 V8, dual exhausts
2002 Jaguar XJ8, 2000 Harley Road King
Lakewood, CO
Necoa #: 4450
Location: 12(MO,OK,KS)
Joined: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 446
Year: 1986
Model: El Camino
Posted: Tue May 13, 2008 7:13 pm Post subject:
R-134a is already on the outs in Europe. It has been discovered it causes global warming far more than R-12. It does not eat up the ozone but it will not be the refrigerant of choice for long. Next up will be Co2 at VERY high pressures. R-12 is still available and it works better. It is stupid expensive but it is still the choice of most of the pros. _________________ 1986 El Camino
1985 Porsche 911
2008 Infiniti G35X (wife's car)
Necoa #: 9990
Location: 2(CT,MA,ME,NH,RI,VT)
Joined: Aug 19, 2007
Posts: 20
Year: 1984
Model: El Camino
Posted: Fri May 23, 2008 7:36 pm Post subject:
Thanks for all the tips.
I went with the R12 on the Monte Carlo as that system was all in tack and still had some preasure in it when checked. But now the compresor is starting to make a noise every now & then.
I have not installed the Compresor on the Elcamino yet so I think I am going to replace it with a new one and go with the 134A on that system. _________________ 1984 Elcamino SS
1987 Monte Carlo SS
Necoa #: 2321
Location: 15(AZ,NM)
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
Posts: 1169
Year: 1974
Model: El Camino
Posted: Sat May 24, 2008 2:18 am Post subject:
I've had 134 in mine for about 8 years now and 3 compressors. Since I went to the Serpentine conversion it was easier to just stay with the 134 setup with the new radial compressor.
I'd say if you have a perfectly running R12 system keep it that way. 134 is not as efficient at cooling and runs at a higher pressure. The old A6 compressor(s) never quite did the job with 134 on my rig. With R12 they ran far less and cooled far more. THe new compressor doesn't seem to have any trouble with it but it's a radial compressor.
I'm still amazed how all the "experts" talk about how R12 was killing the ozone. Considering you can dump a can of it on the ground and it'll never go more than a foot in the air. It's heavier than air. Oh well, that's the way it is I guess. Maybe it was the airplanes that were messing up the ozone layer??
_________________ 74 El Camino Classic - project car #1
96 Camaro - RIP, Traded 10-16-2007
2008 Mustang GT, It ain't a Chevy but at least it's American!
The day is fast aproaching when R12 will be impossible to get, or so cost prohibitive, you won't want it.
R134 is here to stay, at least for the forseable future - I would convert it. I did, and even tho it does not get as cold, as quickly, it does work and now there are no headaches.
If you do any traveling, and have trouble with the R12, you might not be able to find a place that has it. Where I live, about half the AC repair shops, won't even work on a R12 system, as they do not carry it. JMO
Actually, R-12 is getting cheaper by the month due to much reduced demand. Most R-12 daily drivers are gone to car heaven and many of the remaining collector and daily driver cars have been converted and continue to be every day. The only place it is being used with any regulaeity is in the US. (China too, but they make their own)
There are tons of NOS R-12 out there available from the manufacturers, but it is very pricy yet. Expect it to hit the surplus market in a few years.
There is also a vast amount of R-12 that was hoarded when manufacturing ceased. folks bought it to hold on to as an "investment" hoping to make a bundle later. Many of those people missed the peak price and it is being unloaded as the price falls.
As the demand continues to decrease, the price will continue to fall and there is enough to supply the small market for many years to come. _________________ Oh, you drive a Hummer? That's a cute little truck. My ride is an EMD E-8A. Wanna play chicken? www.lakeshorerailway.org
R134a can be made to cool just as well as R12, but you have to do the conversion thoroughly and correctly. A $135 "conversion" just won't do it. It sounds like that shop is installing a $40 "Death Kit". Don't let them near the car.
The A6 compressor is quite capable of preforming well with R134a. It is probably the best automotive AC compressor ever made. In fact, the Frigidaire designed system (A-6, POA valve) has never been topped.
The key to R134a in that system is adjusting the POA valve to maintain the correct evaporator pressure for R134a. The other key is airflow, airflow, and airflow over the condenser. Proper attention to those 2 things and your converted R12 system will have outlet temps in the 30's.
I'm personally an advocate of keeping the system R-12, but R134a conversions work very well when done properly. Getting an R12 system done at a shop is a real wallet cleaner, though. They most likely paid a premium for their stock and pass that on to the customer. _________________ Oh, you drive a Hummer? That's a cute little truck. My ride is an EMD E-8A. Wanna play chicken? www.lakeshorerailway.org
Oops. Double post. _________________ Oh, you drive a Hummer? That's a cute little truck. My ride is an EMD E-8A. Wanna play chicken? www.lakeshorerailway.org
Last edited by lsrx101 on Sun May 25, 2008 11:32 pm; edited 1 time in total
Aww, Thanks. (blushing) _________________ Oh, you drive a Hummer? That's a cute little truck. My ride is an EMD E-8A. Wanna play chicken? www.lakeshorerailway.org
Necoa #: 2321
Location: 15(AZ,NM)
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
Posts: 1169
Year: 1974
Model: El Camino
Posted: Mon May 26, 2008 11:32 pm Post subject:
An A6 may be a great compressor back east but it's not in AZ. My whole family has been GM fanatics for 40+years and had lot's of A6 compressors in their vehicles, me included. I guess people believe anything is good if you don't use it much but my experience is different on this subject.
When it's 110 outside and you're sitting in rush hour you're gonna use it. I had one A-6 Compressor go while I was just sitting at a stop light and another just seized up driving down the road ( In january mind you). Both were installed dry for R134, with new condensor evaporator, dryer and teflon coated lines. Parts cost alone was over 500.00 with about the same for the AC shop to do the labor so it wasn't cheap and it wasn't quick. Anyone who tells you otherwise is fooling themselves.
There was no part of the system that had ever seen R12 and it still failed. One of the problems is the high head pressure it puts on the compressor. If you still have a fan clutch with a converted A6 system keep an eye on it. I had one fan cluth go and it took the A/C clutch with it because of inadequate airflow coming across the condenser.
I had two Camaros, one a Z28 the other a Berlinetta that lost their A6 compressors after about 15K miles. I don't know too may people who have had much luck them around here so I can't agree they're the best ever made. They may be the best of the R12 compressors but they're definitely at the bottom of the list for R134.
_________________ 74 El Camino Classic - project car #1
96 Camaro - RIP, Traded 10-16-2007
2008 Mustang GT, It ain't a Chevy but at least it's American!
I'm sorry you had lousy luck with A6 compressors, but your experience runs contrary to that of most folks in the AC repair business regardless of the part of the country they are in.
The consensus for arid places like AZ, NM, south Texas, and others is to absolutely stay with the A6 if possible.
In R134a conversions, the performance and longevity of "modern" compressors such as the Sanden, Seltec, and R-4 is much poorer than the A6 in climates such as yours. Granted, in the extreme temps that you see, it's tough on most AC systems. The American Southwest is the acid test area in the US, if it isn't 100% something IS going to fail.
I don't know why you had problems, but I can speculate from the clues you gave in your reply. R134 normally raises the head pressure about 10% over R12, well within the range for the A6. 2 common reasons for failure come to mind: poor airflow from a bad or poor quality (aftermarket) fan clutch, or overcharging to try and compensate for lack of POA valve adjustment. (I won't get into systems with marginal condensers, etc. I'm referring to "most" GM/Frigidaire systems) Unlike most modern compressors, the A6 will tolerate steady head pressures over 300psi. Sustained operation over 350 psi will kill any automotive compressor, including the A6.
I'm not saying you are "wrong" in your experience. I'm just saying that there were likely other factors involved in the failures, not necessarily shortcomings with the A6 compressors. If you were talking about the R4 or R5, I would totally agree.
My opinions are not just from a few cars back East where "we don't use the AC much". MVAC is one of the things I do for a living and my opinions are drawn from the experience of AC pros all over the country (very many from The ASW where it is very serious business).
From your description, your "$500 for parts and about that much for the shop" system was about $3-400 short even here "Back East" in Northern Ohio. I would expect that type of system rebuild to be about $1600-1800 in your neck of the woods where AC really matters. Could there have been some cost cutting involved? Cheaper parts that just weren't up to the task?
There is a lot of "junk" out there that is attractive if you are trying to save a few bucks. I have to constantly weigh price and quality in the parts I use. I refuse to forgo quality to make a few more dollars, but I have to save where I can. It's a fine line, and in an area like yours that line is much more critical. _________________ Oh, you drive a Hummer? That's a cute little truck. My ride is an EMD E-8A. Wanna play chicken? www.lakeshorerailway.org
Necoa #: 2321
Location: 15(AZ,NM)
Joined: Jan 30, 2004
Posts: 1169
Year: 1974
Model: El Camino
Posted: Wed May 28, 2008 2:08 am Post subject:
Hey, you like 'em, they work for you, great!
What I know is that they weren't reliable in at least 12 cars that my family has owned over the years.
With that many cars with varying levels of maintenance I can't help but see a trend.
The compressor in my 96 Camaro went bad in 30K miles but the replacement was still going strong 120K miles later. I've never gotten
that longevity out of an A6.
What I'll give you is that the mounting systems on mid-70's cars weren't that great. Most of the A/C bracket setups were definitely an afterthought and didn't help the longevity of the compressor.
So I don't trust them and that's from personal experience with R12 and R134. I don't know if any compressor would do very well for very long in this climate but I've seen many do better than the A6 out here.
It's not like I don't try to save the compressor either. I don't leave the A/C switch on when I shut down the car. I shut off the A/C if I know theres a quick acceleration coming up and I don't sit and idle for an hour with the A/C on. The traffic light example happened after the A/C was on for about 15 minutes.
There are no absolutes and I'm sure your experience is 180 degrees from mine from the tone of your post. However, my experience is genuine and verifiable and I have the receipts and bloody knuckles to prove it.
Forgive the tone but I've been talked down to by more than one dealership mechanic only to fix the problem myself after being told it couldn't possibly be what I suggested.
_________________ 74 El Camino Classic - project car #1
96 Camaro - RIP, Traded 10-16-2007
2008 Mustang GT, It ain't a Chevy but at least it's American!
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