S10 fronts a good way to go?

just plain john · Posted: Thu May 22, 2008 7:30 am Post subject: S10 fronts a good way to go?

Greetings all. I just did new control arm bushings, idler arm, ect., ect. and I figured this would be a good time to upgrade the nrakes on my 81 model. The stockers are tiny (originally had 14" wheels) and single piston. I have reviewed several posts and feel no need for Z06 or equivelant, so I'm asking if the S10 swap is a good choice, and what's the cost? Just doing the front now, GN rear is in the works and I'll probably use the stock setup out back. I am now running 15 inch Welds. Looking to do this as a bolt on. Any opinions?

elcam84 · Posted: Tue Sep 23, 2008 7:10 pm Post subject:

s-10 used the same size rotors. You want to look at the 98 or so and later blazer. It's a different spindle as it uses a seperate hub and rotor. It's basically a bolt on for 5th gens. Added braking and upgrade flexibility but no improvement in handling though.

I'm looking at when I finish painting my elky... Which will be in the next few weeks. Depending on how long it takes me to get all the trim holes filled in somehow (70+) and to either smooth out one of my tailgates or get another...
to continue that original thought...
I really don't like calipers with a piston on one side. Sliding calipers are a great idea on paper but in use they are a pain to keep actually sliding properly and even if they do work right they still drag a little.
So I'm looking at putting 12 or 13" rotors under there with opposing piston calipers. Most likely they will end up being Wilwood calipers or similar. That project is a while off though. Gotta get to that point...
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Robert Adams
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ElCaminoMan78 · Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:52 am Post subject:

Stainless Steel Brakes Corporation makes a direct bolt on aluminum duel piston caliper. It is called the Quick Change Caliper Upgrade Kit. The kit comes with the calipers, factory style z-rated pads, and new hardware. It costs about $410 from Summit Racing. Summit Racing/SSBC

The first thing I would do is get braided steel lines to replace the rubber ones, and then some good brake pads. But if your going for looks and improved braking, you should look in to SSBC's kit

elcam84 · Posted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:03 pm Post subject:

Those calipers are nice but they don't give any improvement in braking. The limiting factor is the rotor size/mass.

However I hate sliding calipers with a passion. Every brake pad should have it's own piston to push it. Sliding calipers work from the factory for a while then they get gunked up and even replacing everything with all new parts and doing it right they still don't work well. The outboard pad will always drag some no matter what.

So yeah those calipers are a good thing but don't expect much other than longer pad life and less drag.

Still need to go up to a larger/heavier rotor to really improve braking. It's all about the rotor absorbing and dissapating heat.
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Robert Adams
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MEvang · Posted: Sun Oct 19, 2008 8:56 pm Post subject:

Robert, I have to disagree with you to some extent, let me explain.
Even through single piston calipers can have slide problems, if lubed and maintained properly they can be bullet proof. These calipers have a great history of reliability this is why 90% of production cars use them today.
Multi piston fixed calipers have some advantages. Manly you can use a larger pad and spread the force better across the pad which makes them great for performance cars with large rotors and trucks. On the down side, fixed calipers with large pads are very runout sensitive. On a slider you can get away with upwards of .006 runout and not see a problem. On a fixed you could feel as little as .002. So you are much more likely to have reoccurring pulsation problems which plague many sports cars.
Fixed calipers also have a far greater chance of pistons seizing up as you have more pistons, smaller and most times poorer sealing boots.
Older Delco single piston calipers have a few niches that can be taken care of. One as you point out is the exposed slides (most modern single piston designs have sealed slides). I suggest always replacing the pins during an overhauled with new one. These pins are coated and offend the coating wears off the old ones. Make sure there is no rust under the O-rings that the pins slide in and always use new O-rings. Makes sure there is no rust build up on the sides of the calipers that move through the upright, same with the upright. Best bet is to start with rust free rebuilt calipers and then paint or powdercoat to prevent rust. Coat the pins with a thin coat of silicone brake grease. Also coat the caliper sides and upright. Once done the caliper should side back and forth very easily.
These old GM calipers have one of the best boot seals ever designed and piston problems are rare. These caliper can give very long service life, long pad life and great stopping power.
One last thing, The smaller GM caliper used on 78 and up EC where designed to use semi-metallic brake pads. Be sure when you get pads to use semi--metallic and not Carbon fiber. You will have much better stopping power with the proper pads.
Mike
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"That the automobile has practically reached the limit of its development is suggested by the fact that during the past year no improvements of a radical nature have been introduced." (Scientific American January 2, 1909).

elcam84 · Posted: Mon Oct 20, 2008 5:44 pm Post subject:

I have done just one or two brake jobs as a master ase.

Rust is not an issue here so most cars here look virtually like they did the day they rolled off the line with just dirt on them. No issue there.

Yes sliders are better with runout because the whole caliper can contort around the rubber bushing/sleeves where as opposing pistons rely on the retraction of the seal and any kick back from a rotor with uneven pad compound distibution (notice I didn't say warped rotor).
The opposing piston seals don't pull the piston back as far because it isn't doing for both sides either so initial braking is a little quicker. Though this does impact the pulsating issue which many newer calipers use a larger square o-ring now to pull the piston in further.

Many of the newer sliding calipers are well designed. Unfortunatly many of the GM ones over the years were not so great. the old style with the twin pins was not one of their better designs. Same with the ones that were used on FWD cars into the early 00.

The problem of ours is well they are open. So any grease you put on them to help the sliding attracts dirt which causes the caliper to drag even more. Also many of the "caliper greases" will often cause the little o-rings to swell making the caliper sliding nearly impossible.
Most of the replacement o-rings are also poor quality as in they don't fit right and they are also not the proper rubber. They need to have the correct shape and that means it isn't an o-ring but actually flat inside.

They usually worked good from the factory but... Some work great for a long time and others are nothing but trouble even with all new good quality parts.

My biggest problem with getting the pin type sliders to work like I want them to is finding the correct grease. The stuff sold by parts stores and supply houses is just expensive chassis grease which does not work well with the o-rings and tends to swell them. They also collect dirt easily. I have found a few greases that work well but they are expensive and hard to get. They take more heat and they don't attract dirt. The stuff I use has the look of dilectric grease but thicker consistancy.
The open pin types just weren't a good overall design. Even the closed ones on FWD cars were a pain as the big rubber sleeve swells from heat over time and is not the easiest thing to change out on the car.

As for the piston and seal design. Yes they are good. I have never seen a seizure on one here. Only a few that had a slight catch when pushing the piston back in it's bore but that wears off very easily and runs smooth again.

I don't know of anyone making carbon pads for our cars. They would cost big bucks and why put good pads on a tiny rotor.
_________________
Robert Adams
http://gparts.freeyellow.com
84 Conquista